ABBA's Björn Ulvaeus on Writing a Musical Assisted by AI and Those Kiss Avatars: SXSW London
Björn Ulvaeus, the Swedish ABBA singer, as well as songwriter, music producer and co-founder of Pophouse Entertainment, may be 80 years old, but he continues to be excited to create and tell stories through music and beyond. That was one of the key messages of his appearance during a Wednesday 'The Future of Entertainment' session at the first-ever SXSW London, which drew a huge crowd to the hip East London neighborhood of Shoreditch.
In a wide-ranging discussion, he addressed writing a musical with the help of artificial intelligence, the London hit show featuring ABBA avatars and why his company is betting on Kiss to have success with a similar show.
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'Right now, I'm writing a musical assisted by AI,' the hitmaker shared on stage. While not sharing much detail on the project, he mentioned that it is a collaboration with a female creative partner and that he was about three-quarters through his work.
So what is his experience creating music with AI? 'It is such a great tool,' he told the SXSW London audience. 'It's unimaginable that you can bounce back and forth with a machine, or a software, which can give you ideas to go in various different directions.'
But Ulvaeus also made one thing clear: 'A misconception is that AI can write a whole song. It's lousy at that — very bad. And thank God! It's very bad at lyrics as well. But it can give you ideas.'
He shared an example to illustrate a point. 'You have written a lyric about something, and you're stuck maybe, and you want this song to be in a certain style. So you can prompt the lyric and the style you want, asking, 'Where would you go from here?'' he explained. 'And it usually comes up with garbage, but sometimes there is something in it that gives you another idea. That's how it works. It's like having another songwriter in the room with huge reference frames. It is really an extension of your mind.'
Speaking of songwriting partners, Guardian music writer and on-stage interviewer Laura Barton asked Ulvaeus how AI compares to collaborating with ABBA partner Benny Andersson. 'It's quicker and does exactly what you tell it,' he responded to laughter. 'But it's not the same thing as having a songwriting partner.'
More laughs ensued when Barton asked if Ulvaeus has ever asked AI programs to write ABBA lyrics. 'It says, 'No, we can't do that,'' he replied.
But he shared that he and Andersson haven't only produced hits. 'There was a period when Benny and I didn't quite know what garbage was,' he quipped. 'There's proof of that. People don't listen to that.'
The ABBA star currently serves as the president of CISAC – the International Confederation of Societies of Authors and Composers. So he also had business insight to share on how the AI and music sectors should collaborate. 'The AI music generators train on copyrighted material. They train on all the world's music. And for that, we feel that they should be paying something towards the songwriters and the artists and all those who actually created what they need to be able to create their AI models,' he emphasized. 'I think it's slowly happening. There's a debate going on in the music and the tech industries about how that remuneration might happen. Also, the U.K. government is supposed to take decisions about how to regulate, how to look at AI and so is the European Union.'
He then suggested that a likely model to follow with AI is that of streaming deals. 'I think the model that is closest is the model that we have in streaming services where they have you subscribe, and part of the subscription goes back to the music industry, and that's what happens with Spotify, Amazon and all the others,' he said. 'That one might be the one that applies to this as well, but AI is something completely different, so we don't know.'
Ulvaeus co-founded Pophouse in 2014 together with EQT founder Conni Jonsson. The company acquires and develops entertainment brands within music, podcast and gaming. In 2022, it also began a push into music catalogue investments. On Wednesday, he highlighted that this has allowed him to work with music from such names as Avicii, Cyndi Lauper and Kiss.
In 2021, ABBA unveiled their comeback with the release of the album Voyage and the virtual stage show ABBA Voyage in London, ticket sales for which topped the 2 million mark in its first 19 months. Ulvaeus discussed the success of the offering and how other musical acts will benefit from similar shows. 'Kiss, we believe, could be a very interesting avatar experience in the kind of Marvel universe' in the digital age, he said.
Indeed, Pophouse unveiled at the end of 2023 that 'Kiss, the legendary rock band known for electrifying live performances over a 50-year career and sales of more than 100 million records worldwide, is marking the end of its physical existence by crossing into the digital world. The new Kiss avatar shows will be the second immersive, avatar-powered music concert project that Pophouse Entertainment is involved in — following the success of the ABBA Voyage show in London, where Pophouse is the lead investor.'
In Wednesday's conversation, Ulvaeus also discussed his continued appreciation of popular music, sharing that he currently enjoys Lola Young's 'Messy,' from which he intoned a line of the chorus, and how artists can future-proof their legacies in a rapidly changing landscape, including AI, immersive experiences and touring.
SXSW London runs through June 7. Penske Media, the parent company of The Hollywood Reporter, is the majority stakeholder of SXSW.
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