Children's minister Karen Chhour criticised for lack of transparency over bootcamps
Karen Chhour.
Photo:
RNZ / Samuel Rillstone
Opposition MPs are criticising the children's minister for a lack of transparency regarding the government's bootcamps, despite more than $30 million dollars being allocated towards future versions of it while the pilot hasn't finished yet.
Labour's Willow Jean-Prime said the government knew the bootcamps weren't working, but refused to admit that and was "pouring more money in anyway."
Karen Chhour continues to back the pilot though, saying it was about giving young people a chance, but acknowledged the death of one participant derailed some of those taking part.
Chhour was questioned by Labour, the Greens and Te Pāti Māori about the government's youth military academies in a scrutiny hearing on Wednesday.
She was also
grilled on contracting decisions
by Oranga Tamariki and the
latest report
from the Independent Children's Monitor on outcomes for young Māori in care.
Labour's Willow Jean-Prime.
Photo:
RNZ / Samuel Rillstone
Prime referenced the latest report evaluating the progress of the academies that she said was "uploaded quietly" onto Oranga Tamariki's website last week.
It's the second
preliminary report
and focuses on the transition of the young people in the pilot from the residential phase to the community phase.
Some of the findings included a reduction in the "seriousness and frequency of offending" and spending longer in the community were "successes", and had been observed for some but not all the teenagers in the cohort.
In terms of the reduction in offending, the final report - due later this year - would include analysis of police data.
However, it noted the small number of participants meant it was unlikely any "statistically robust conclusions" would be drawn about the impact the programme had on reoffending compared to other youth justice residences.
The report also stated the detailed design and planning of the transition phase began "late" in the residential phase, which led to a "disconnect" between the residential and community phases.
It pointed out social workers had key roles in transition and worked well with mentors but "did not have enough preparation or capacity".
Most mentors formed a close relationship with the teenager they were supporting, but there was a lack of clarity on some aspects of the mentor role itself.
Prime quizzed the minister on why nobody was alerted to the report being released publicly, given the "public interest" in the issue.
Chhour said she wouldn't normally alert people personally when a report was released.
Prime then asked - from the evaluation - whether the minister was confident the experiment had been a success, given the coalition was investing an additional $33 million into military style academies, and whether it was a good response to youth offending.
Chhour said it wasn't the only response to youth offending, and she "absolutely" supported the initiative, but said she wasn't in a place to say whether it had been a success or not.
"Yet - you're giving it $33 million?" Prime interjected.
"This is still in a pilot stage," Chhour said, "it still has a review process to go through once the pilot has ended."
"What I am confident about is the legislation that's going through allows us to pivot, to learn from things that may not have worked within the pilot, and actually pivot to change the things that did work within the pilot, so the legislation allows for that."
Prime asked whether it had led to a reduction in reoffending, saying that was the "primary objective" of the academies.
Chhour rejected that, saying the primary objective was to give young people a chance not to enter the correction system.
She refused to provide any detail on how many young people had reoffended.
Prime noted the report had stated six of the participants had been interviewed in the residence during the community phase, suggesting that meant 60 percent of participants had reoffended.
Prime pointed to the academy being entrenched into law before the pilot was completed, saying the report didn't give any reoffending rate which was "disappointing".
"You all know that is the information that we are seeking to be able to assess whether this is working."
Kahurangi Carter.
Photo:
VNP / Phil Smith
The Greens' Kahurangi Carter also said the releasing of the report hadn't been a "transparent process" because media and politicians weren't alerted. She asked whether the rangatahi "actually had" support in the community, which was key to the pilot.
National Director of Youth Justice Residences and Home at Oranga Tamariki, Iain Chapman, said it was a pilot and "you learn from a pilot".
He said there'd been elements of success in the residence phase, but some "learnings" from the transition to community phase.
Those lessons would be taken, along with the evaluation toward the end of the year, and inform any future military style academy.
Labour's Helen White then called the project a "flop" and criticised the Minister for funding her "pet project" rather than allocating that money toward reducing the amount of violence in society which leads to the deaths of women and children.
Helen White.
Photo:
VNP / Phil Smith
Chhour responded by saying it was "disingenuous" to "sit there and yell across this table like I'm not doing anything to protect these young people."
"It's not either or ... we have to work at both ends of this" she said.
White doubled down, saying violence was a crisis, and did the Minister agree "we have to be open minded if something doesn't work, and redirect money into things that do work."
Chhour agreed, saying that was exactly why there had been a review of all contracts, and White interjected asking "would you like to go there?" and Prime attempting to offer the Auditor-General's findings.
Chair of the committee Joseph Mooney.
Photo:
RNZ / Samuel Rillstone
Chair of the committee Joseph Mooney called for the question to be answered, with Prime scoffing in frustration.
"I absolutely do agree we have to make sure there are outcomes for the money we are spending on our contracts, which is what the review process was about moving forward," Chhour replied.
Prime then tried to get further detail about future military academies, such as where and when they would run, what the projected numbers were for those who would take part, and the cost per participant.
Chhour said she couldn't talk about the next iteration because it was still a "pilot" and decisions hadn't yet been made as to how that money would be allocated once the pilot had ended.
"We look at the learnings from the pilot, and once the legislation goes through, then we can make some of those decisions. But I can't give you answers on decisions that haven't been made yet."
Prime pointed out there was a budget allocation for it, so there must be some information or modelling about the future versions, and queried how the specific allocation of money was decided on.
Chhour said the money was there to provide certainty that contracts can be procured where necessary.
She said the money may not be spent, or she may need to bid for more money.
Chapman also chimed in saying there were a lot of "variables" but there were no definite decisions.
Prime said multiple times her question hadn't been answered, raising a point of order, to which Chair Joseph Mooney decided the question had been addressed and moved on.
The final evaluation of the bootcamp pilot will be released in late 2025.
Kahurangi Carter also raised the report which found Oranga Tamariki was "poorly prepared" to carry out its contracting round during the 2024/25 financial year, and fell short of expectations for public organisations.
The report stated the effects of the decisions by the child protection agency were "still not known" and this was "unacceptable".
Carter asked whether Minister accepted the findings, to which she said she accepted the processes that were happening could not continue, and there had to be accountability for contracts.
"I'm never going to apologise," Chhour said.
She said the Auditor-General had a right to say what he did, but there'd been no scrutiny or accountability on contracts, and she wouldn't apologise for asking the agency to have outcomes for the money it was spending to protect children.
Asked whether she stood by her statement that Oranga Tamariki had been a cash-cow for community service providers, Chhour said "absolutely I stand by that statement".
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